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Old 09-23-2011, 06:10 PM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Question 89 Dakota wont start.

Hi, I have a 1989 Dodge Dakota Pick up that wont start. I have no spark, no power to the spark, and no fuel. The truck ran rough, then just quit. I removed the Auto Shutoff Relay and by passed it by jumping the 12v wire to the ground wire, the fuel pump started, and was delivering fuel to the carb. I was aso getting 12v at the primary of my coil, but no spark. I checked my coil with an OHM meter, and it checked out to the specs in my manual. I replaced the Auto Shutoff Relay, but it's exactly the same, no spark, no power at the coil, and no fuel. I'm not sure where to go to from here. Any help is greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2011, 06:27 PM
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carverman carverman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagestruck View Post
Hi, I have a 1989 Dodge Dakota Pick up that wont start. I have no spark, no power to the spark, and no fuel. The truck ran rough, then just quit. I removed the Auto Shutoff Relay and by passed it by jumping the 12v wire to the ground wire, the fuel pump started, and was delivering fuel to the carb.

I was also getting 12v at the primary of my coil, but no spark.

I checked my coil with an OHM meter, and it checked out to the specs in my manual. I replaced the Auto Shutoff Relay, but it's exactly the same, no spark, no power at the coil, and no fuel. I'm not sure where to go to from here. Any help is greatly appreciated.
You were smart to bypass the ASD relay. I have jumpers for those
occasions where jumpers are necessary to troubleshoot the problem.

So you have a "carb" on yours?

Ok, so how did you check the coil? Voltmeter across the primary winding
leads? Where did you put the ground probe on the voltmeter? On the coil terminal itself or just to engine ground?

The PCM provides a PULSED gnd path for the coil primary. It will pulse the
gnd terminal of the coil primary winding (the 12v winding), based on what information it gets from the distributor,
and I presume yours has a camshaft sensor of some kind?

So to really check the coil high tension o/p and the camshaft sensor,
you need to bypass the ASD and take a spark plug wire off the dist cap
(temporarily) and plug that into the coil high tension tower , then insert a test spark plug into the spark plug end.
Ground the sparkplug, crank the engine and check for a spark on the test spark plug.

If you see a spark, the coil and camshaft sensor are good.

If not then you need to troubleshoot whether it's the camshaft sensor
or the coil itself. The ASD will be shut down if either the camshaft or crank sensor are not providing
pulse information to the PCM. Both of these provide critical engine timing info to the PCM
The crank sensor for the injectors, but you mentioned a carb? Is that the same as throttle body fuel
injection?

The cam sensor performs the same duty as the old fashioned ignition points..spark timing.

If either sensor is bad, usually BUT NOT ALWAYS, the PCM will set a code for a bad sensor.

There is no way of troubleshooting the sensor other than to replace it,
but you can manually pulse the coils' primary low side by dragging a
wire quickly like striking a match. The coil will energize momentarily
and when the ground path disappears, the secondary of the coil should
discharge and produce a spark.
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Last edited by carverman; 09-23-2011 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:27 AM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Default 89 Dakota wont start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carverman View Post
You were smart to bypass the ASD relay. I have jumpers for those
occasions where jumpers are necessary to troubleshoot the problem.

So you have a "carb" on yours?

Ok, so how did you check the coil? Voltmeter across the primary winding
leads? Where did you put the ground probe on the voltmeter? On the coil terminal itself or just to engine ground?

The PCM provides a PULSED gnd path for the coil primary. It will pulse the
gnd terminal of the coil primary winding (the 12v winding), based on what information it gets from the distributor,
and I presume yours has a camshaft sensor of some kind?

So to really check the coil high tension o/p and the camshaft sensor,
you need to bypass the ASD and take a spark plug wire off the dist cap
(temporarily) and plug that into the coil high tension tower , then insert a test spark plug into the spark plug end.
Ground the sparkplug, crank the engine and check for a spark on the test spark plug.

If you see a spark, the coil and camshaft sensor are good.

If not then you need to troubleshoot whether it's the camshaft sensor
or the coil itself. The ASD will be shut down if either the camshaft or crank sensor are not providing
pulse information to the PCM. Both of these provide critical engine timing info to the PCM
The crank sensor for the injectors, but you mentioned a carb? Is that the same as throttle body fuel
injection?

The cam sensor performs the same duty as the old fashioned ignition points..spark timing.

If either sensor is bad, usually BUT NOT ALWAYS, the PCM will set a code for a bad sensor.

There is no way of troubleshooting the sensor other than to replace it,
but you can manually pulse the coils' primary low side by dragging a
wire quickly like striking a match. The coil will energize momentarily
and when the ground path disappears, the secondary of the coil should
discharge and produce a spark.

Wow! Great response! I haven't checked what you were suggesting yet, but I will. It has a Holley carb on it yes, but it is EFI.

When I by passed the Auto Shutoff Relay, I was getting 12 volts at the primary while grounded to the block. I then disconnected the power, and used an OHM meter on it, checked the primary by grounding the negative to the other post of the coil. I then checked the secondary the same way with the ground. It checked out to the specs. I don't know if it has a cam shaft sensor, and I'm not sure where that is?

An update: I removed the distributor to remover the plate, and found the distributor was broken. I thought for sure that would be it! I replace the distributor and plate.......it's exactly the same. No voltage to the coil, fuel pump will not work...only if I short out the power and ground to the ASD will I get power to the coil, and the fuel pump will work, but still no spark.

I will look up the camshaft sensor and see if I can find it, and hopefully replace it for cheap and easily.

Thanks for your great advice, I will update!
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:14 AM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagestruck View Post
Wow! Great response! I haven't checked what you were suggesting yet, but I will. It has a Holley carb on it yes, but it is EFI.

When I by passed the Auto Shutoff Relay, I was getting 12 volts at the primary while grounded to the block. I then disconnected the power, and used an OHM meter on it, checked the primary by grounding the negative to the other post of the coil. I then checked the secondary the same way with the ground. It checked out to the specs. I don't know if it has a cam shaft sensor, and I'm not sure where that is?

An update: I removed the distributor to remover the plate, and found the distributor was broken. I thought for sure that would be it! I replace the distributor and plate.......it's exactly the same. No voltage to the coil, fuel pump will not work...only if I short out the power and ground to the ASD will I get power to the coil, and the fuel pump will work, but still no spark.

I will look up the camshaft sensor and see if I can find it, and hopefully replace it for cheap and easily.

Thanks for your great advice, I will update!
I can't seem to find any listings for a Camshaft Position Sensor for this truck?? Help?
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:36 PM
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carverman carverman is offline
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[QUOTE=gagestruck;7172]It has a Holley carb on it yes, but it is EFI.

This is not a carb. It is a Holley EFI throttle body fuel injection.

Most newer Dodge engines use sequential port EFI, where there is a U shaped fuel rail and individual (6) injectors
for a V6 working off the the fuel rail. The fuel pump simply pressurizes the fuel rail... or the Holley 2bbl EFI,
(in your case), where there is a fuel injector for each cylinder bank.
It works similar to a carb where the fuel is atomized with the air coming in at a typical 14.7 (air) to 1 (fuel) ratio.

Quote:
When I by passed the Auto Shutoff Relay, I was getting 12 volts at the primary while grounded to the block.
Well as I said, if you have a PCM on yours, the ground leg will be pulsed by the PCM at the appropriate timing per cylinder.
You will ALWAYS have 12v at the primary of the coil, because it has to be there in order
for the coil primary to be pulsed by the PCM or some form of electronic ignition..I don't know exactly what is on yours.

So by measuring 12v across the primary of the coil, ALL YOUR HAVE PROVED is that 12volts is present..nothing else..
you have NOT proved out the electronic ignition that controls the primary of the coil.. at least so far.

Quote:
I then disconnected the power, and used an OHM meter on it, checked the primary by grounding the negative to the other post of the coil. I then checked the secondary the same way with the ground. It checked out to the specs.
While you can test for continuity on the primary of an ignition coil, it is not the same test procedure
for the secondary (high tension winding) of the coil, which is NOT grounded within the coil itself because of the high voltage generated..in essence, the ISOLATED secondary winding is part of an autotransformer, many many turns of fine wire, and one end connected only to appropriate tap of the primary coil, therefore it has no real connection to ground
until the high voltage gets to the sparkplug gap.

More than likely the coil is ok.

Quote:
I don't know if it has a cam shaft sensor, and I'm not sure where that is?
On the dodge dakotas, the camshaft sensor is a hall effect semiconductor sensor mounted on a black plastic plate inside the distributor. It is held on by two screws.

There is a "pulse" ring that rotates on the distributor shaft and every time the pulse ring rotates near the 5 Volt
cam sensor, a very short duration pulse is generated. This works similar to the old fashioned point ignition which
opened and closed by a rubbing block ( under spring tension)on each cam lobe, to pulse the primary of the coil.

On the cam sensor, the pulse at the appropriate timed interval, goes out via a 3 pin terminal plug to the PCM .
The PCM uses this pulse to control the primary of the coil at the appropriate cylinder ignition time.
It has a open collector buffer power transistor to pulse the coil at a 12volt potential.

Inside the PCM, an open collector power transistor pulls the ground leg of the primary of the coil to ground, that allows 12volts (current) to flow through the coil primary energizing it. As soon as the pulse goes away, (due to magnetic saturation and hysterisis inside the coil), the magnetic field collapses , and a counter EMF is induced inside the coil's
secondary..(the high tension winding), which creates a huge voltage potential, and a spark at the appropriate spark plug. The auto ignition coil is similar to a tesla coil. Look that up on Wiki to understand how it works.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system.htm
End of ignition 101
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Last edited by carverman; 09-29-2011 at 01:00 PM.
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  #6  
Old 09-29-2011, 06:23 PM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Thanks for your awesome reply. I am stumped then. I replaced the distributor, and also the the plate, or cam sensor in the distributor, and it does the same, no spark, no power to the coil, and no fuel.....not too sure where to go to from here....
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:36 PM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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The only codes that came up were 12 and 33. Battery disconnect, and a short in the AC
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Old 09-30-2011, 03:39 AM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Could it be the Single Board Engine Controller (SBEC) ?
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:00 AM
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carverman carverman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gagestruck View Post
Could it be the Single Board Engine Controller (SBEC) ?
I am going by my 98 Dakota Haynes manual which has the same ignition
coil/cam sensor but sequential port FI.

The ASD relay is controlled by the ECM (or whatever the engine management computer is called on your truck (SBEC).

If the SBEC detects that a critical sensor input is missing or out of range,
it will operate the ASD relay to prevent possible harm to the engine.
These sensors include the cam sensor (distributor),
and the crank sensor (usually located behind the right (passenger side) cylinder block,
which generates pulses to the ECM when it detects a magnetic " timing tooth" on the flywheel.
These are usually a "Hall effect" solid state sensor.
(Read "Dodge Dakota has lost it's spark") here:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/...bl055a-lib.htm

I expect there is one of these in your vehicle as well to determine
cylinder TDC (firing) position in relation to the flywheel gear teeth.

Unfortunately due to their nature, you cannot test these sensors
in a static mode with a DVM (voltmeter), in order to see what
the sensor is doing when the engine is cranking you need to look
at it with an ocilloscope. Here is a youtube video on how to
test these dynamically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rf...feature=relmfu

The Auto Shutdown Relay (ASD)
On mine, 12v to the ignition coil is control by a set of contacts on the
ASD. The low side (gnd side) of the coil IS controlled (pulsed) by
the ECM from the signals it gets from the Crank and Cam sensors.
I expect yours is similar.

On my sequential port FI V8, a different set of contacts on the ASD
cut the 12v to one side of the fuel injectors (pulse coil) and the
gnd side is controlled individually by the ECM.

The Fuel pump relay is controlled by the ECM, and I expect that
if the ECM doesn't get the inputs from the sensors it is expecting,
it shuts that down as well.

So in essence, when that happens:
1. You have NO spark
2. You have no Fuel injector pulsing, even with the 2 that should be there
on your throttle body FI)
3. You have no fuel delivery

You need to bypass the ASD relay, and perhaps the fuel pump relay
with jumpers to continue troubleshooting but this can be done
in two separate trouble shooting stages.

1. verify the ignition circuit on the ECM (coil driver) is working
2. verify that the fuel injector pulsing circuit on the ECM is working

If not, as in your case.

At this point, you need to see what is happening coming INTO the ECM
in regards to the 2 sensors (cam/crank), to see why the ASD
is BEING OPERATED by the SBEC.

It could be the SBEC, but first before changing that expensive control
board, you need to be SURE that all the required sensors are functioning within the parameters that the ECM/SBEC is expecting.

If the sensors are not functioning completely,you should get some kind of
check engine light code.

P0340 = no camshaft signal detected during engine cranking
P0320 = no crank reference signal detected during engine cranking
p1391 = intermittent loss of signal from either crank or cam sensor


If you are sure that the sensors are ok, AND the ASD is still being operated by the ECM,
then it is possibly something that has gone wrong inside the ECM.
OR some kind of input that is not there that is expected.

Whether it can be reprogrammed in that specific case, I don't know..but usually if there
is an internal fault in the ECM controller, you should get some kind of code (but not always, unfortunately :-)
P0601 = internal controller fault detected
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Last edited by carverman; 09-30-2011 at 06:11 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-30-2011, 10:53 AM
gagestruck gagestruck is offline
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Thanks again, you have been a big help!! I think I may have to break down, and have it towed to a shop....
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